...especially when the result is simply "opportunity", not results. I don't have experience directly with Sonicbids, but anytime someone wants to charge you for the privelege of participating, I always look a little deeper into the business model. Consider the number of bands, multiply that by 60+ dollars, and you can see how lucrative it is - and they don't have to do anything (other than host it) to fulfill their commitment to you.

Paying people to review your CD is silly.

You can find this situation in almost any industry that has choice jobs/opportunities. The allure of great success encourages people to make decisions that normally wouldn't make sense. (Would you pay a cover to stand in line at a club, with no idea whether you would get in or not? No. That would be dumb.)Music is certainly one, but the travel industry and modeling are others that seem to have this practice built into the culture. In the business world, a headhunter would be the same thing as Sonicbids. But they only get paid once they find you the job.

If Sonicbids has a monopoly on a bidding process, that is troubling. That situation is never a good one if the monopoly is out to make a profit.

Hey All,

This is Tony from the Sonicbids, sorry this is so late. But first I want to say that this is good discussion, and we figured Sonicbids should shed its point of view on the matter.

While we do charge a submission fee we guarantee that the submission fee would cost no more then you would pay to send that person a physical press kit via old fashioned snail mail. The only difference is that with us it’s electronic, instantaneous, and it won't get lost in the mail. When it comes to the larger festivals that charge an application fee, we make sure our price is the same if not less then festival you’re submitting to.

You’re right however the costs can add up and there a lot of things that may not be suitable for every artist. So we always recommend that you do research into any opportunity prior to submitting. As your band may either not be ready for it, or you may be way above it. We try not to put a value on any one opportunity as what works for one artist may not work for another. So it pays to take the time to try and build a relationship with the person your submitting your press kit and $5 dollars to.

If you are at the point in your career where you are sending out physical press kits to people on a weekly basis, this service can in fact save you a lot of money, as we have a tool that allows you to send a press kit to anyone with an email address at no additional costs (or the time it takes to put a promo pack together). We have had artists take great advantage of this. I use it with my own group http://www.sonicbids.com/stemsounds. We found that talent buyers like the format; it allows us to focus our content to a nice resume fashion that a fan wouldn't care too much about.

I will say that we are out to become the standard in online music talent buying, however our intentions are in no way profit based. Our goal is to open up a world of opportunities to new artists who wouldn't otherwise know where to look, and to open a world of talent to promoters who otherwise wouldn't even know they existed.

If anyone has any questions you can always free to reach us at http://www.sonicbids.com/support

-Tony-

Tony, thanks very much for coming by and adding your thoughts - it always means a lot when someone from a company being discussed actually turns up to give their viewpoint! That free resume-style submission idea is interesting - will look into it.

For me, the problem isn't so much from Sonicbids itself - because the model itself is very useful and practical. It does save a lot of hassle in mailouts, it has tons of features, and it's nice to have a record of everything. The problem is from the people who are willing to use Sonicbids to take advantage of emerging artists' dreams and hopes. This is, of course, common in the entertainment industry - there's so many people who want to be rock stars and movie stars and famous authors and scriptwriters, and it makes them an easy target.

I don't have any problem with festivals charging to review an EPK, because it takes a massive amount of effort to put these things on, many, many hours to review all the submissions, and it's generally a once-a-year, labour-of-love effort on the part of those involved. But I do have a problem with venues - small venues like the Pit - charging a cost to accept a band's application, because if you have a performance venue, selecting bands is part of your job, it's not an extra service. That's a trend that worries me a great deal - is it going to cost me $100 just to APPLY to book a cross-Canada tour, with no promises of any results? And I do have a problem with people setting up fly-by-night music review websites and then charging bands $5-10 for a review that may or may not get written.

But I don't expect Sonicbids to police the opportunities for shady deals, unless something is pretty obviously a scam. And I don't suppose you want to discourage venues and promoters for charging. I guess what it comes down to is "caveat emptor". As an artist you have to choose what you think is going to be worthwhile.

I think you provide a useful service. I just don't want it to become the ONLY way that artists can apply to opportunities, at increasing expense and with decreasing chances.

Kirsten

Amos - if there is one thing that the long tail phenomenon will truly revolutionize, it is the power of integrity. With so much choice available, people (artists and fans) will no longer be held hostage by those who only want to exploit them. I believe - perhaps a little naively - that those with honourable intentions will thrive in the long run, simply because word will get out and spread very quickly.

I don't deny anyone the right to offer value, and I also believe Sonicbids has a great product/service concept. In this case, it just seems like someone got a little enthusiastic with the potential "exclusivity" factor.

I do enjoy a good discussion...

And I also love talks of the long tail phenomena. If you haven't read this book yet I encourage everyone to read this book "The Long Tail" by Chris Anderson

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1401302378/bookstorenow600-20

Really good read, and from a musicians point of view Its incredibly exciting, cause the long tail can give rise to a middle class musician, where many of the talented acts who currently go under the main stream radar may find themselves in a niche market. They might not be major Pop Superstar Status, but many will be able to live comfortably off a dedicated fan base.

And Kristin, I understand your concerns about the idea of putting everything in one standard medium. There is always a downside to that no matter what model you apply it to. Just as there is a downside to everything. Sonicbids does not want to be the only way you get gigs or book a show, we do however want to be the main platform for that initial connection, to help artists find that venue, song contest, ect ect that they wouldn't other wise known existed. After that we hope the working relationship is built, and there is no need to submit anything, where you can be like

"Hey Bob, were coming around again this year, how about a Saturday night gig this time".

We are good for when you can't just walk into the club and talk to someone (which no doubt is the best method of getting any gig). Even if you do submit through Sonicbids, I encourage you to still pick up the phone and call, or write an email, and really give the promoter, booker, ect ect the sense of who you are.

Our goal is to have a community of artists who pick and choose what promoters they want on the site, a lot like ebay where the really bad sellers get ignored and avoided.

And I can see what Amos is saying as the idea of the double dipping. And for the smaller clubs and other opportunities we used to have free submissions. However there were major problems with that. Where artists would submit to things with the "hey its free, why not?" mentality. Metal bands would submit to jazz venues and other things. Which for the promoter, made Sonicbids useless, and the artists that were a good fit for the venue get ignored among the noise. So we introduced the $2.00 minimum fee to act as a barrier. Having some type of monetary investment will hopefully mean that artists are investing into the business relationship as well, and making the submission more worth while.

We Like our system, but nothing is perfect and we are always open to better ideas. So if you have a way you think Sonicbids can be better I am all ears. No one at this company claims to know everything, and we designed the site for artists and promoters to connect, so the only way it can get better is by having artists such as your self tell us what you want to see out of a service like ours.

We definitely don't want to be a "bad neighborhood" So I suggest you common down for a visit

-Tony-

first i'd like to say - tony you're a good rep for what you're doing at sonicbids. i appreciate the lack of "defensiveness" and you get points for being straight up about "not being perfect."

as stephen said, artists "with the "hey its free, why not?" mentality" kinda rained on the party for everyone else. at present, i haven't a better idea to solve the problem beyond what you did.

maybe someone could see something that's workable for a large database of artists and promoters?

anyway, i for one, am glad to see you on project opus - i know with so many music outlets out there today it's hard to be authentically involved in so many communities. still, i have wondered why more sites haven't seen the importance of working alongside one another as opposed to being "in competition" with one another.

kudos to soncibids for representing.

hopefully, the "long tail" idea and simply the interactive nature of the new media and it's new models will produce strategic partnerships, friendships, alligences, and networking possibilities - so that "exclusive" doesn't win the day - and Win / Win becomes the news of the day for those who do have integrity.

a rising tide does raise all boats and ships and things that float

certainly, it is my hope that sonicbids will be a "great neighborhood" - and in today's economy - we should all remember that great neighborhoods are created by great neighbors.

peac4d.
amos

next comes fire!

I first just want to say thank you for you kind words and for the awesome ideas, and thank you all for being open to conversation with me. The best results always occur when you have large numbers of people are working together toward a common goal, to add to the inspiring words of Amos.

And yeah it would be awesome if sites and companies did start to work together, instead of competing. But competition is what creates the best outcome, because it pushes you farther, or at least that’s what most business models use as motivation. Though I would imagine there is a better way to attain that progressive growth while working with like minded people, but that is the holy grail there, at least in my eyes. And as Stephen said the problem comes down to integrity.

And Kristen your idea of an E-bay comparison is a great idea, and we actually have something very similar to that in the works. Not sure of all the details yet, but we are looking to incorporate a rating and feedback system for promoters and artists. So artists can comment on promoters they have worked with, and vice versa.

We tried last year, but we didn’t quite get it right that time, so we will be trying again, which is currently scheduled for late this year.

What we hope to attain is precisely what you said, we want the integrity to come out, and we want the artists to decide which club, promoter, label, Ect. Ect, is good and which is not, and we want the information to be easy to find. We also want promoters to know how good an artists is too, like what act will show up on time, or at all. And what we also want is the ability to rate good feedback out of the non helpful stuff, and the ability to review the person giving the feedback, so you know whither the comments are legitimate.

And Digg does have really interesting technology for something like that, so I wonder how we would be able to implement it. I’ll shoot that idea on over as something to think about when we start hashing out the project.

Like you said, I hope that with enough people using the system it could be easy to weed through any false and or just useless information, but only time will tell. First we have to build it.

I've used it quite a bit over the last 6 months and what I've noticed is the same companies (if they really exist) keep trying to promote the same gigs. I would apply and it would cost me $10 and then I'd get a "not selected" response a little while later. Ok, my music is probably cr@p. But then I'd see the same company promoting a gig almost identical to the previous one. When I apply for this then I get the same "not selected" and so on and so on. I've noticed this particularly in the category TV/Film/Radio. It seems a huge money spinner for someone - sonicbids and promoter.
I've noticed in one case I applied for a gig (cost $5) and got a reponse of "on file" because the promoter apparantly according to the status liked my submission. That was 3 months ago and I've heard nothing from them since. Then I saw the same gig being promoted again with a later submit by date and for $10 this time.
The only way I saw this 2nd gig being promoted was because I got suspicious and googled the gig name and type. If I go to the submission list I don't see it in there. Are there some smarts in the sonicbids website that check if you've already applied for a specific gig regardless of the date then it doesn't show the 2nd one they've created in the list so you don't get suspicious.
Has anyone else had some similar experiences.